NYT opinion: Is algebra necessary ? in Off topic Forum

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NYT opinion: Is algebra necessary ?

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Daedalus	NYT opinion: Is algebra necessary ?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1116 07/29/12 2:23 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None My first thought was this is what happens when we authorize low-rate minds to invent phony degrees: they contaminate the education system with their mediocrity. Then i read the comments and caught on thanks to one of them. Anyway you thoughts ladies and gentlemen ? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?pagewanted=all Last Edited By: Daedalus 07/29/12 2:27 PM. Edited 1 time.
llilly		#1	[-]
Posts: 9761 07/29/12 2:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	This should be interesting. Jealousy is the horse the devil likes to ride.
firebat		#2	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/29/12 3:07 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	llilly wrote: This should be interesting. So, the bottom line - if it's hard - let's eliminate it so our poor little darlings don't have to suffer. Out goes cursive writing too. Let's learn Guitar Hero instead of a real instrument.Give them more time to party! Just think of the teachers we could eliminate and the taxes we could save! &^&%^$%^%U(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The dumbing down of America. My wife's friend's daughter is a senior in high school, on the "honor roll" and CAN NOT recite the multiplication tables - but she can exceed her texting limit and cost her parents $500 in texting bills to her friends last month - maybe a little math could help here - as well as a little discipline? Soon all the engineers and scientists will be from Asia and in the US we will all be flipping burgers. Mathematics fosters independent and abstract thought and deductive reasoning - but who needs that to be able to play Angry Birds? This article frosts my a if you want to know the truth and I think the author, ironically Andrew HACKER (political scientist - oh great)**, is FOS. Isn't Political Scientist an oxymoron? I'll bet he flunked Algebra and this is his revenge. If I had some time I'd tell you how I really feel. Interesting enough for you llilly? Whatever happened to this spirit? Last Edited By: firebat 07/29/12 6:02 PM. Edited 16 times.
jchinnis		#3	[-]
Posts: 17219 07/29/12 6:03 PM Registered Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You want fries with that?
firebat		#4	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/29/12 6:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	jchinnis wrote: You want fries with that? Yes please and super size - how much will that be because I can't add anymore? And since poets don't need algebra - maybe we don't need poets either - when you feel the need for poetry just ask Siri? Last Edited By: firebat 07/29/12 7:05 PM. Edited 4 times.
alansc		#5	[-]
Posts: 2002 07/29/12 6:42 PM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	From my own experience at school and bringing up a son with ADHD, I'd say it's not what you teach but how you teach it.
alex black		#6	[-]
Posts: 1417 07/29/12 6:51 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Good rant, Firebat (and good to see you back here). I've had a few similar rants about how the Chinese and Indians (among others) are about to eat our lunch and drink our milkshake. They have a generation coming of age who are far more prepared to do the work that the world needs done - and will be ecstatic to do it for 20% of the salary that their American counterparts "expect" (and will never get). It's a giant step up in the standard of living for the families of the Chinese and Indian kids. They've been living in conditions far, far below what "impoverished" Americans have been living in for decades, so I'm happy to see them make that step up. As far as the Americans kids coming of age - they truly have no idea what they're in store for. It's going to be a rude awakening. The recent college graduates are getting the first taste of it - their job prospects are nothing like that had been expecting their whole lives - and they never will be. The ones who never made it through college? They'll actually be lucky if they can get a job flipping burgers. There'll be competition for those jobs.
firebat		#7	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/29/12 7:02 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts
Lynnears AB		#8	[-]
Posts: 8982 07/29/12 7:03 PM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have a kid cousin who graduated from Harvard two years ago with a double major of math and physics. He graduated magna cum laude and Phi Betta Kappa, and Google snapped him up in a nano-second. He's now a project manager for Google, and doing very nicely, thank you. Not all kids are looking for the easy way out. I meant to read that article and put it up myself, because I especially wanted llilly to see it. Thanks for putting it up, Mr. D. Too bad about that high school, FB. It sounds pathetic. The texting is totally nuts. No one talks anymore, they text.
alex black		#9	[-]
Posts: 1417 07/29/12 7:08 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Lynnears - Oh, they talk. And talk and talk and talk. Texting is just one more way for them to keep talking even more.
firebat		#10	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/29/12 7:11 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	alex black wrote: The ones who never made it through college? They'll actually be lucky if they can get a job flipping burgers. There'll be competition for those jobs. And the ones who did will never be able to pay off their student loans. Lynnears - that's a great story and I'm happy for your cousin - but I think if you look at the big picture, overall trend in our country I think you will see a completely different pattern developing for the less fortunate. Last Edited By: firebat 07/29/12 7:17 PM. Edited 1 times.
firebat		#11	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/29/12 7:15 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	alex black wrote: Lynnears - Oh, they talk. And talk and talk and talk. Texting is just one more way for them to keep talking even more. And how does the old saying go - when you're talking, you're not learning?
llilly		#12	[-]
Posts: 9761 07/29/12 7:25 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What's going on in education is ridiculous primarily because of "No Child Left Behind". This year 92.5% of the students in the schools have to meet or exceed the standards in reading and math on the state test or you have a failing school. If one subgroup (like English language learners) doesn't make it, the whole school doesn't make it. In my school we regularly have students arrive from Mexico that have had no formal education before coming to our school. They aren't going to be at grade level by test time no matter what we do. Combine that with all the other issues in my school and community and we have 78% of our students meeting or exceeding the standards, but we are a failing school. We only had four students on the academic warning list - out of 700 students. But we are a failing school. What do states do when schools aren't making progress toward the No Child Left Behind requirement of 100% of the students being at grade level in the next three years? 100% is an impossible goal. Do doctors cure 100% of their patients? Do lawyers win 100% of their cases? Do fry makers make 100% perfect fries? Why are teachers expected to be accountable to a 100% level? First, while all children can learn, they all aren't going to be at grade level unless you change what grade level means, so that's what happens every few years. In effort to get more people to pass, everything gets geared down. Data is constantly analyzed to see who is within five points of meeting the standards and they get extra attention, not the child with the lowest skills. They are constantly subjected to benchmark testing until those tests show they would make up those 5 points. It's no fun for them or us. It gives me a headache just thinking about it. Jealousy is the horse the devil likes to ride.
jurate		#13	[-]
Posts: 6687 07/30/12 11:31 AM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Daedalus, I wonder what you mean by" Then i read the comments and caught on thanks to one of them. " I'm hoping you are indicating that this repulsive article was some kind of political science experiment or joke.
jurate		#14	[-]
Posts: 6687 07/30/12 11:41 AM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Among other things, mastering algebra confers important lessons in logic and problem solving. It is no surprise that this author finds it so difficult. The amazing thing is that this individual was actually a professor at a respectable university (which I hope is utterly humiliated to see their faculty member in today's paper).
dpellerin		#15	[-]
Posts: 1015 07/30/12 12:14 PM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I would just turn the table and ask the Respected professor why should it be necessary for science students to study Shakespeare in their English courses. Of course I believe we all should be exposed to Shakespeare and its difficulty in grapsping the language is not reason enouh to dissmiss as an important part of the curriculum.
muttanjeff		#16	[-]
Posts: 2698 07/30/12 12:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	i think the article was spot on i remember little of the algebra, geometry, trigonometry etc etc that i was taught in high school high school is required not elective many kids have no aptitude or use for these skills if they do or have an interest, they can pick them up in trade or technical schools or college better to spend the time teaching them how to find and use information on the web we don't all have inner geniuses waiting to be set free and many teachers are simply mediocre put a kid with little aptitude in math in with a mediocre teacher and you have a recipe for a huge amount of wasted time and effort and likely a very unhappy and discouraged student I would just turn the table and ask the Respected professor why should it be necessary for science students to study Shakespeare in their English courses. Of course I believe we all should be exposed to Shakespeare and its difficulty in grapsping the language is not reason enouh to dissmiss as an important part of the curriculum. asking someone to read a shakespeare play is not the same as requiring courses in mathematics The will of the capitalist is certainly to take as much as possible. What we have to do is not to talk about his will, but to enquire about his power, the limits of that power, and the character of those limits. .... Karl Marx
dpellerin		#17	[-]
Posts: 1015 07/30/12 12:31 PM TSMB Supporter Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	asking someone to read a shakespeare play is not the same as requiring courses in mathematics We weren' t simply asked to read the play. We were asked to study together and go over the important passages and dissect the meaning. I don't remember much of the Shakespeare nor use it in everyday life but it was an important part of my development years. I agree with Jurate when she says that Algebra teaches how to think logically and is important in development of deductive reasoning and problem solving. The students may not use Algebra in their future years but the discipline and learning of the problem solving skills stays with them.
Daedalus		#18	[-]
Posts: 1116 07/30/12 12:36 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	alex black wrote: They'll actually be lucky if they can get a job flipping burgers. There'll be competition for those jobs. Here in Belgium, there is competition for such jobs. Jurate, i now have my doubts. Apparently Amazon sells his book. I doubt a hoax would go so far. The names sounded fishy. I had read a comment saying this was the 80th anniversary of the publication of brave new world. But i couldn't find the exact date. A journalist and a poli sci graduate. Small wonder. Here poly sci and communication are considered the worst degrees. Guaranteed unemployment for life. We don't have (yet) liberal arts. I have always advocated the closing of too mediocre faculties. Not only are they a waste of money but they give dangerous social prestige and academical cautions to morons. Plus they ridicule the whole university system. In France the damage is so high that university graduates are considered losers. Elites are made in their "grandes écoles" which recruit by nation wide contests. Most of these "grande écoles" are engineering ones. EDIT: and if someone struggles to demonstrate (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² , really he's just a moron. That's not being bad at maths, it's having a medical problem. It took me 10 seconds to write it. We ask our 12-13 years old to do that. Last Edited By: Daedalus 07/30/12 12:45 PM. Edited 1 times.
firebat		#19	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/30/12 12:41 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	jurate wrote: Among other things, mastering algebra confers important lessons in logic and problem solving. It is no surprise that this author finds it so difficult. The amazing thing is that this individual was actually a professor at a respectable university (which I hope is utterly humiliated to see their faculty member in today's paper)absolutely! Absolutely! I think you could make the same ridiculous argument that Prof. "Hacker" made for just about any subject. What an apropo name! If you want a well rounded education you take mathematics, amongst other "core" subjects. If you don't care about a well rounded education then you get a certificate in some skill (and there is nothing wrong with that). However, like everything else - they now want it all (money for nothing and their chicks for free (Dire Straits)) - don't want to take the courses and do the work - but want the degree! Hope the double parenthesis didn't confuse anyone. And jurate, watch some of the cable news "guests" in the evening and you will see what passes for "professors" in some of these universities! Last Edited By: firebat 07/30/12 1:27 PM. Edited 1 times.
firebat		#20	[-]
Posts: 2031 07/30/12 1:04 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Daedalus wrote: EDIT: and if someone struggles to demonstrate (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² , really he's just a moron. That's not being bad at maths, it's having a medical problem. It took me 10 seconds to write it. We ask our 12-13 years old to do that. Yeah! It's common knowledge on K-PAX (you have to see the movie).

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NYT opinion: Is algebra necessary ?

NYT opinion: Is algebra necessary ?