Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps in Archive 4 Forum

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Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps

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tonyjeffs	Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/25/07 10:17 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A bunch of people tried this some 7 years ago. Several reported a dramatic reduction in their tinnitus. (not tinnitus perception; a reduction in the tinnitus itself) The side effects include drowsiness, dry mouth. I don't think anyone continued to use it long term. I've never tried it myself but if I needed a break, I'd go to my doctor and ask for the Scopolamine PAtch, which you put on your skin. The drug reduces the level of one of the main neurotransmitters in the hearing system, Acetyl choline. There is plenty of discussion about it by people who have taken it, on usenet: groups.google.co.uk/group...fafd4628a2 And there has been some research, though when I looked it was the sort that required a subscription before you can read it.
jchinnis	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#1	[-]
Posts: 17210 04/25/07 10:42 AM Registered Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've run an email list for discussion of Meniere's and related vestibular problems for many years. Scopolamine is sometimes used by members, and a frequent report is that tinnitus diminishes. No one has been able to stay on it long-term, though, as you said. (Old, vexing, issue: I think of tinnitus as the perception of sound when no physical sound (pressure wave) is present. So I invariably get tangled up when someone tries to separate "tinnitus" from the perception of that radio station from hell we are tuned into day and night... ) Jim
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#2	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 12:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Scopolamine is sometimes used by members, and a frequent report is that tinnitus diminishes. It is a shame that no significant research has been done into this and related drugs. It is presumably a relatively safe drug since it can be bought over the counter. (as the Transderm Scop patch in Canada, and as a component of other otc meds in all other countries It is crazy that the ATA, which prides itself in its research program, has shown no interest. As you say, it could be because the predominant interest for the past decade has been in 'tinnitus perception' rather than in actual tinnitus.
jchinnis	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#3	[-]
Posts: 17210 04/26/07 5:56 AM Registered Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"it could be because the predominant interest for the past decade has been in 'tinnitus perception' rather than in actual tinnitus" I think you are using "perception" to mean that interest has been in looking at how psychological and behavioral things can influence how much we notice the tinnitus and how intrusive it is. By "tinnitus itself" you are imputing the existence of a "signal" that exists independent of our perception of it. If we didn't perceive it, the tinnitus itself could still be there. So far we have never found a "tinnitus itself" (that can be distinguished from the perception) despite a fair amount of searching. Like you, I think something more stable(?) or "objective" than the percept and its associated neural firing patterns within the conscious brain. Certainly if attention is diverted from the tinnitus, it may disappear as a percept, yet I think both of us believe something continues that is "tinnitus." We don't yet understand how attention and the like affect conscious experience, at least not well enough to know exactly how to find and measure the "signal" apart from measuring the perception. I hope we get there soon. As to the scopolamine bit, you may be right that it has been ignored, but I can't recite all the tinnitus studies done over the past decade or so and there may well have been some that have looked into this. I have no doubt that more would be better though... I'll look into this later when I can unless you want to do the work instead... Jim
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#4	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 8:34 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	True enough Jim! Thank goodness cancer researchers are looking at ways to destroy tumours rather than wasting money researching the emotional distress caused by cancer! We're digressing from my original point though; For people needing temporary respite from tinnitus, it is worth asking your doctor about the transdermal scopolamine patch.
freddie connor	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#5	[-]
Posts: 13708 04/26/07 9:01 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree Tony, but it seems that the side effects make it a short term solution. But it still suggests to me that a large proportion of tinnitus is caused by transmitter imbalence, what do you think? freddie.
Ronnald	re	#6	[-]
Posts: 4901 04/26/07 9:16 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tony, is this the patch that goes behind the ear? I did find this. High doses of salicylate induce a temporary hearing deficit and a temporary subjective tinnitus in humans and animals. In animals, salicylate suppresses activity in the ascending auditory system but generates activity and plasticity in the auditory cortex and central amygdala. In addition to changes in the auditory system evoked by hearing impairment, enhanced stress may be crucial for the salicylate-induced alterations in the auditory cortex. The central amygdala responds to stress, and may influence cortical excitability and plasticity through cholinergic mechanisms. We investigated whether salicylate-induced plasticity in the auditory cortex is prevented by blocking cortical cholinergic receptors with the muscarinic antagonist scopolamine. Scopolamine suppresses salicylate-induced plasticity in the auditory cortex and, therefore, may be effective in suppressing the tinnitus sensation.
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#7	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 9:16 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Freddie, A useful research experiment would be to see if scopolamine temporarily reduces people's hearing at the same time as reducing tinnitus. (I suspect that it would.) I'd do the converse experiment with caffeine too. Perhaps some people who are very depressed by tinnitus would benefit from the short term break, and from the knowledge that they can take another break again, any time they want. One of the worst things about tinnitus is knowing that you can never switch it off. If you knew that you did have the ability to switch it off, just that knowledge in itself would make a person feel better, without even taking the drug again.
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#8	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 9:30 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ronnald, Yes that's it. It is good to see that researchers are finally taking a look at scopolamine. It is a pity someone couldn't have done that 7 years ago when it was the talk of the neighbourhood. Even that abstract seems to me swamped in dogma. For example: Why, I wonder, do they assume the significant interaction of the drug is with muscarinic receptors in the auditory cortex, when there are important muscarinic receptors in the inner ear. Why do they associate the effects of aspirin with neuronal plasticity! etc etc But at least they may have put the drug on the researchers' map. It's a start.
Zephyr	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#9	[-]
Posts: 135 04/26/07 9:55 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	*Quote:* Several reported a dramatic reduction in their tinnitus. (not tinnitus perception; a reduction in the tinnitus itself) Is there a difference? Tinnitus is the perception. If you don't perceive tinnitus, then you don't have it. And anyway, even if there somehow was a difference between the two, how would one be able to tell if there's a reduction in the tinnitus 'itself', not just in its perception?
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#10	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 10:04 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Zephyr, I've nothing against suppressing tinnitus perception at all. It is what keeps me and many of us going. But when it comes to research, I think it is often better to tackle the root cause of tinnitus, not the emotional response. But note that I do also want research into drugs that suppress tinnitus perception, such as scopolamine In the last decade a lot of researchers have addressed the perception of tinnitus, and rediscovered a lot of stuff, particularly about the limbic system, that was already very well known; This has resulted in no new understanding of the condition. There is an excellent paper by Heller & Bergman on tinnitus from 1953. I found it a very interesting read, but at the same time it is sad to see how little things have changed. www.tinnitus.org/home/fra..._Nov00.pdf
Jose Cassella	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#11	[-]
Posts: 431 04/26/07 10:33 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	well do me a favor guys, why don't you all call the ATA and report this to them.
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#12	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 11:23 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Jim, Are you still on the board for the ATA? Could you get something moving? You have the contacts and the respect.
Eva62	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#13	[-]
Posts: 39 04/26/07 12:05 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I am still very new to this, but I looked up this drug, and the side effects scared the hell out of me. What kind of dosages are required for some temporary relief? How long can you stay on this? Eva
jchinnis	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#14	[-]
Posts: 17210 04/26/07 5:38 PM Registered Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tony, I have no connection at the moment with the ATA, other than paying my dues. I've been really time-stressed of late, but will try to look into this issue in the next few days. Jim
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#15	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/26/07 7:39 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Nice one Jim. I think the ATA is more open to different ideas than they were 7 years ago when I spoke to them, so I wish you success. Eva You might want to read this by someone who tried it. groups.google.co.uk/group...fafd4628a2 I would've considered the side effects pretty run of the mill. What did you read that scared you? There is a good chance you've taken scopolamine before since it is a common ingredient of otc sea-sickness and car-sicknes pills. I understand that one patch will yield results. I'm not suggesting that everyone with tinnitus go out and take it though. But I think it would be useful sometimes when people are really in severe distress with tinnitus and need a break from it - time to think.
guangs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#16	[-]
Posts: 1339 04/27/07 5:24 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If you are cynical, like me, I believe its all designed to take a roundabout long way to an effective treatment. While cloaking it in scientific grammar to fool the consumer. Well I'm not fooled.
mrsandiegojoe	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#17	[-]
Posts: 14 04/27/07 7:48 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've just left a message with my docter about this drug for tinnitus. As soon as I get it and try it, I'll let you all know. Even if I know there's a temporary option for relief oh man!! That would be awesome...
ChristianFr	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#18	[-]
Posts: 3845 04/27/07 10:45 AM Registered User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi, You might find the following paper interesting: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entr...med_docsum The research seems to be part of a doctor thesis by a researcher called Claudia Mahlke. Unfortunately only the abstact is translated into English: elib.tu-darmstadt.de/diss/000460/ I wonder if they are also considering clinical trials with humans. Maybe contacting Dr. Wallhusser-Franke or Dr. Mahlke to find out more is worth a try. C.
tonyjeffs	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#19	[-]
Posts: 4157 04/27/07 1:18 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Christian, Ronnald beat you to it with the abstract earlier in the thread! But you take full credit for the thesis. I commented that I don't like the way they 'muddy the water' by starting from the perspective of a belief that neuronal plasticitity and tinnitus perception are of primary relevance. Nevertheless, it is great that someone has actually looked at scopolamine. If someone hopefully does do the experiment on humans, I think they should have maybe 6 arms to the trial; one placebo and five muscarinic ACh antagonists. Or maybe they should do more (less expensive) animal trials first to see which of the many similar drugs are likely to be better. Scopolamine is the only one I've heard of. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. I might write to one of the doctors. Guangs, I don't understand your post. This isn't something that comes initially from research by someone selling a treatment - it comes from ordinary people who have tried it. See the ref's above, and see Jims comments on the Menieres board that he runs.
ChristianFr	Re: Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps	#20	[-]
Posts: 3845 04/27/07 8:40 PM Registered User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Tony, My mistake! I'm severely overworked at the moment, and I fully admit I only overflew this thread because I was tired at that time! Christian

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Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps

Temporary escape from T with Scopolamine perhaps